Religion Discussion

cameron's last post:

"agree with your right to hold said views. I disagree with them, though i would fight to up hold that right. However.....ah, Rach has told me to discontinue this thread but it is very difficult as only a simpleton(which I agree you are not)would believe in a story book(sorry Rach xx). You have basically said that lust, homosexual acts; and I assume this would include living in sin, recreational sex and masturbation- are sins. REALLY!!!! I have to disagree. These are the cornerstones of all great poetry, literature. music, film and play(possibly with the exception of masturbation...i mean you can create a good rhythm, but that is probably the full extent of its wonders). You see for centuries the church have been instructing people on how to live their lives, but there have been social prophets firing darts into the religious elephant, slowly bringing it to it's knees. Less than 7 per cent of British subjects attend church, and why? Well because the human race is evolving. We don't now need the meta-narratives of yesteryear in order for society to function. We are cleverer than we were(with exception of those who voted Republican in th US eclection). We live in a post-modern age where Neitzsche proclaimed there is no longer right or wrong, but perceptions. Now I wouldn't go quite that far, but i would say this, in a world full of war and conflict, hatred and division, wouldn't our world be a much better place without religion?"

Go on then christian gimbot, reply to my espoused wisdom!

im glad you are willing to fight for my right to hold views you disagree with...that is actually part of the reason i am joining the us navy.

as for a response to your post, if you will clarify your specific arguments against what i said, i will reply. until then i will only reply to one point you made that i strongly disagree with...the world would be a much better place without religion.

although we seem to have competing views of what religion truly is, i cannot even entertain the idea that the world would be a better place without religion...without a group of people who are willing to die rather than forfeit their convictions...a group of people full of hope and compassion and willingness to make the world a better place one hungry or poor or mournful or disheartened or lonely individual at a time. just think about the influence of Christ's words. he has inspired in millions a change of heart...to forgive, to love thy neighbor and God, and to turn the other cheek. and it is religion, which i will equate to the church, whose mission is to reveal the saving truth of Christ to the world. a world without religion would be a world without Mother Theresa, without Martin Luther King, Jr, without Saint Francis or any of the saints. i can hardly believe a world without these people, who clung to their religion, would be better than one without them. im not saying that everyone associated with a particular religion is good without qualification or that a non-religious person cannot be considered good, but those who truly participate in religion, the faithful and humble and merciful and loving...i would say that they are good and they make the world a better place.

yea, because tree worshiping heathens like me are going to burn in the pits of hell due to the fact we've turned the other cheek to the words of your god? what about those not schooled in the words of Christ? I was, i found no particular truth or salvation in them hence why i left the church. Yes, i believe there is a god but i dont' believe he has any effect on everyday life. so will people like me go to hell? who cares...right now i'll live my mortal life and whatever comes after that will be a mystery to me just as the after life is. good luck witht his debate, but i thought i'd add my two cents.


oh, and let the record show that i'm not a "tree worshiping heathen", it was just a point to be made.



Rock on...
Kevin

I wanna be with you forever, and tomorrows not too late...

"Beware the fury of a patient man" ~John Dryden

scubacayman88,
im interested to know what you have to say about God if he has no effect on everyday life. why do you believe there is a God?

I can't accept the world would be better off without religion. How can a huge nbumber of people finding a focus to their lives and beleiving that there is something greater than the shitty world we live in, and trying to make the world better be a bad thing? But then it would be a lot easier without the "religious people will go to heaven, all those who don't go to church (or equvilant) will go to hell" absolutists.



~ Sofi ~

"And so tomorrow there will be another number for the one who had a name."

Ok.

No 'God' condones death, suffering, massacre and violence. Surely. Now show me followers of a religion who haven't done any of the above on another man.

And its interesting to note how many times these religious books get changed over the decades. You think things like 'the Bible' are still the same way they were 'originally written'? Wake up.

'Religion' is a war provoking farce.

I personally believe that something created this; something created me; and I might just end up somewhere at the end of it all.

Done. Thats it. Shortest belief ever written.

I don't know who, I don't know why, I don't care when.... it happened, I happened. End of. I'm not going to spend my life 'worshipping' something and someone that might not be there.... it might be the wrong frickin' 'God' after all the hassle! If some 'omnipetent being' wants to advise me otherwise, they are welcome.... but until then, I'm going to live by the morals and values that every human has by default.

That way, if I happen to burn in the fiery depths of deepest blackest hell at the end, I won't have done so on Earth in the beginning. Because with the amount of war, and evil, that religion and their followers seem to bring, it won't be long before the differences between Hell and here, are all that different.

Don't be a religion. Be human.

Exactly. I agree with Sketch.

I think it's scary when people are extremely religion devoted. Like, I have a friend who has a blog, and I go to it sometimes, and I'm just frightened by it. She pretty much puts her prayers as entries. Plus, she's always sharing her views on religion, and it doesn't really make people too comfortable. Whenever she is around, people feel they have to watch what they say, even me, and I don't swear and am pretty innocent. I can't talk about anything without her asking if I've asked God for help.

I once asked her something about her car, and she said "It's not my car, it's God's car." And she actually fast forwarded through a scene in a movie where 2 women were talking about sex.

I don't have anything against her if she wants to go church every day, and be as religious as she is, but I do think she goes too far overboard by preaching. It's pretty bad when it affects the comfort level of the people around her, who are not nearly as religious.



"It's not always rainbows and butterflies it's compromise that moves us along"

I agree with what Sketch has to say.... and my opinion on religion is that is all just organized clults. no offence to anyone, but if you think about it, its people worshipping an unknown "God" that may or may not be there... I dont believe religion should shape peoples lives and actions, instead there should be certain values or morals people should try and uphold. You shouldnt have to worship buddah or jesus or alah, instead go out and do something nice for someone instead! I know they seem totally unrelated but think of how much better this world could be if instead in the middle east the hindus and muslims werent fighting over religion, or even if the US all religious prejudice ended over jewish people, or muslims, ect. ect. Ehh whatever I'm having a really hard time trying to explain so I give up for now.

~*Taylor*



~*wOOt!*

bush is an ass!were all doomed!

i agree with BriaM :-P
oki oki BriaN



------------------------------
"now shut up and listen to the music!" by John Hampson

first of all, i think youre exactly right that God does not condone massacre and violence. however, death is part of being a mortal human just as suffering seems to be initmately involved with being human (name one person who has not felt lonely or desperate or hungry or in pain or...). as for God not condoning massacre and violence, i think you are getting at war (or even genecide) and i would wholly agree that God does not condone war. however, every human has a free will...truly free will...with the ability to do great things as well as the ability to do terrible things. and although God does not condone the atrocities some choose to do in the world, He allows them in allowing our will to remain truly free. as for the followers of religions having done such atrocities themselves, the followers of religions are just as human and just as fallible as anyone else. being a follower of a religion does not make you perfect, it does not even mean that you are committed to honestly following the precepts of the religion. someone's religion OUGHT to indicate what is happening inside the person in the interworkings of his heart.

the bible
cite for me a specific example of how the bible has changed from the way it was originally written and tell me how this specific change affects the message. dont just talk in generalities assuming it has changed.

Ceator
you believe in a Creator but dont you wonder why this Creator created you? if your Creator even cares about you? why you are the way you are? why you are even here?

being a human
i think that is the whole point of christianity. Christ teaches us what it is to be fully human. to feel desperate and alone, to feel compassion, to love, to suffer...but Christ reveals the meaning and extent each of these should hold...he reveals that there is meaning in suffering.

as for the comment about not worshipping God but doing something nice for someone instead...that reminds me of something Christ said...love thy neighbor. the two things Christ said were most important were to love thy neighbor and God. when you love someone, you act according to that love. so i ask you, why do you try to help people?

I'm going to speak on behalf of your moderators, Mike and Scott.


(I'm also going to guess and assume that Mike and I agree on this. I could be wrong)


We shouldnt have any posts on religion. Too many people are passionate about it to the point that it gets scary. There is a reason that you arent supposed to talk about it in mixed company.

How some people can believe so strongly in something which is so abstract is beyond me.

I'm not religious, but I have a friend of mine who is---very much so. I love her...but I don't understand how someone runs their life around it. If it works for you...fine. But don't go pushing it on other people.


That being said. Vote for Bones. (PS. I was in the military)

"How some people can believe so strongly in something which is so abstract is beyond me.

I'm not religious, but I have a friend of mine who is---very much so. I love her...but I don't understand how someone runs their life around it. If it works for you...fine. But don't go pushing it on other people."



That's exactly what I was saying.. hehe. I don't know why I feel the need to post and say that, but oh well, I am bored and feel like typing.



"It's not always rainbows and butterflies it's compromise that moves us along"

i was never pushing anything on anyone. i never said anything about anyone needing to believe what i believe because i know belief is necessarily personal. each person has reasons for believing what he or she does, and you simply cannot force any belief on anyone. i was, however, responding to insulting arguments against things i believe in with arguments of my own in an attempt to truthfully represent my position. furthermore, i do notice that on the one hand, you say we shouldnt be talking about religion and on the other hand, you say nothing about people who speak slanderously about the religious. its important to note that both groups are talking about religion whether they believe it good or whether they believe religious individuals ignorant, war-propagating fanatics.

as for no posts about religion, i think this has been one of the most interesting group of threads to date. sure it makes people uncomfortable, but i think its when we get out of our comfort zone that we make true progress as individuals. and no one is forcing anyone else to read it. if mike and scott want it to end, its their board and i will certainly abide by their judgement. but i for one consider it fruitful and interesting to both talk about what i believe and listen to what others believe and why.

edaqw said:

'being a follower of a religion does not make you perfect, it does not even mean that you are committed to honestly following the precepts of the religion'.....

Ah, at last. This is what has taken me a day and a half to get you to admit. If someone is a signed up member to a religious faith, but doesn't follow the teaching...what is the point? There isn't one. Religions are institutions that give hope and shape to the world for those who need it. For the rest of us who instead of reading a 2000 year old fairytale get on with our lives, and try to be good to one another(not because we are religious but as Sketch said because we are human beings), we look for things that can be quantified.

Another point you seem to love to espouse is that god loves you. Infact when someone questioned the meaning of why god put us here you said:

'You believe in a Creator but dont you wonder why this Creator created you? if your Creator even cares about you? why you are the way you are? why you are even here?'...

All the time you assume that you were created for a reason. That something loves you. That you fit. That you are wanted and shall be rewarded.....but why? Why were you created. To anything up in the sky there are billions of us down here. We are like human ants. Do you care about each and every ant? Do you think ants hopethat we love and cherish them?

The fact is that you DON'T now whether god loves you. You have no all conquering proof that god is even up there! If you did then wouldn't the whole world believe? And worst of all you not only take on other peoples views and opinions on the matter, you follow strict rules in your life that have been cultivated over hundreds of years to stop you from questioning what you have been taught. I realise that the Bible can be interpreted in any way you wish, but if it was the word of God....don't you think it would be REALLY F*CKING EASY TO UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!

has anyone thought of relying on character and values to run their lives instead of religion all the time. sure, i understand the concept, but it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me. I have a core set of values and beliefs (not religious ones) around which i live my life. there's no refferencing off of the words of "God" or anything, they are things that i believe a good person should demonstrate. I life my life according to me, like it or not



Rock on...
Kevin

I wanna be with you forever, and tomorrows not too late...

"Beware the fury of a patient man" ~John Dryden

"If someone is a signed up member to a religious faith, but doesn't follow the teaching...what is the point?"
-the point is the people who do follow the teaching. the individuals who do not follow the teachings of a religion should not be used to judge the religion as a whole. i think that should be obvious since they ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE TEACHINGS OF THE RELIGION.

the reason i hope that i was created for a reason is that if i was not created for a reason, my life and every other person's would have no meaning. none. no reason to do anything. no reason to wake up in the morning. no reason to give a crap about anything or anyone. and my daily interactions and experience are contrary to this. i do care about what i do. i do care about others. i do enjoy a great baseball game or listening to a great song.

as for comparing God's relation to us with my relation to ants, youre right, i dont care about every ant. but it seems youre putting a human spin on God. i didnt create a single ant...not one...but if i had children, of course i would care about them. i would be willing to die for them (hmm, Christ).

"The fact is that you DON'T know whether god loves you. You have no all conquering proof that god is even up there! If you did then wouldn't the whole world believe?"
-youre right, i dont know whether God loves me but i do trust Christ's teaching about God because i have found him worthy of my trust. i have no proof of God, only my personal reasons for believing in Him. furthermore, as i have maintained before, if there were a proof for the existence of God, the whole world couldnt possibly believe...only know...and because we cannot know with complete certainty, it is truly a matter of faith.

"And worst of all you not only take on other peoples views and opinions on the matter, you follow strict rules in your life that have been cultivated over hundreds of years to stop you from questioning what you have been taught."
-this is an assumption on your part. to live is to question...my life is no different. i wonder whether or not it is all just bs...i question my beliefs in the darkness of the night...when im lonely, i wonder where God is, where His unconditional love is. just read the Psalms or Job or the Gospels. i identify with Christ the man, who said in the garden, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death" and then on the Cross, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" but i battle through these dark hours just as Christ did and i look back on the struggle and find it worthwhile.

scubacayman88-
i completely understand what youre getting at by recognizing difficulty in trying to live life by a set of abstract values. i think its the exact same problem with stoicism...why? why should i try to live moderately? why should i endure all this crap? its all rhyme with no reason.

as for living a life as you think a good person ought to live it...even though you probably dont care what i think, i do find that truly noble. in a way, i feel like i try to do the same...its just the good person has a name.

Message deleted on 2015-09-05 06:30:16 PDT

yea, Genesis is sorta on the same page as me



Rock on...
Kevin

I wanna be with you forever, and tomorrows not too late...

"Beware the fury of a patient man" ~John Dryden

Me too. I used to consider myself a Christian, and then I thought about it a bit and decided, 'Well, I don't truly believe in the bible, and I'm not entirely sure that I believe in Jesus. So really, I'm not Christian at all'. I still beleive in God though, and don't think that by not asigning myself to a religion that I'm missing out on anything. At the end of the day, religion is all personnal, it's in YOUR head, it's what YOU belive, or what YOU think. So believe what the **** you want to believe, and don't try to convert other people or influence their pure beliefs that are most true to themselves.



Post Edited (11-07-04 05:26)

~ Sofi ~

"And so tomorrow there will be another number for the one who had a name."

I'm surprised and quite pleased to see my opinions and views gather so much like-minded support.

I'm seeing a general pattern emerging from the majority too.

Beliefs on God(s) are very personal and should remain thus, and we should rely more on the very fabric of our being as human kind, on our compassion, morals, values, respect and emotions (the inner knowing of right and wrong); over the texts and heresay of what may or may not have happened in 'The Beginning'.

The end.



Post Edited (11-07-04 08:08)

Firstly if people say they are a christian, and don't totally follow the teachings, they are still christian. We are talking about the whole christian movement and you have to take the bad with the good. And hey if they sin, well hey, forgive them !!! It's like me going to university but not attending all the lectures, I am still considered a student. So if people don't follow the rules, that doesn't make them any less worthy of being labelled a member of that religion. Heck, there wouldn't need to be the get out clause of 'forgiveness' if every christian was perfect. What i am saying is that if they believe, but don't follow the rules...is there any point? Why not say that you all believe in a higher power and leave it at that. Don't bother with the smoke and mirrors. If people like me who have grown up with a religious background, after 24 years on this planet can pick 2000 years of BS to pieces then maybe it is what it says on the tin.

Buy
Into
Bollocks
Lesser
Evolved


'the reason i hope that i was created for a reason is that if i was not created for a reason, my life and every other person's would have no meaning. none. no reason to do anything. no reason to wake up in the morning. no reason to give a crap about anything or anyone'! -

.......well may be the reason would be to get up and love other people for no reason at all. You see it doesn't matter whether anyone is watching, most of us still get up and are compassionate about one another because we are human beings....and the majority of us are pretty cool! It's like when your a child, you don't hit other kids for fear of being caught, you don't hit them because you are a good person and have compassion....along with the fact that they may have an older brother in the next class over....


...and finally, doesn't the church deplore the use of marajuana? isn't that weird banning a plant that god put everywhere? It's like saying god made a mistake...... isn't making gods creation seem kind of unnatural?

first of all, for all the people who do believe in God but nothing more, doesnt your belief in God imply anything? is there anything that follows from that belief? and im not referring to believing some religion, only using your reason to determine any implications of belief in a Creator/God.

cameron-
are you saying that what you say you are overrides what you actually do...what you practice...what you actually are?

you say we ought to love "other people for no reason at all" but then you say that we should do so "because we are human beings"...which one do you believe? as for the implication that the religious act with compassion because "someone is watching," youve got to be kidding me. do you think people like mother theresa go to those extremes based solely on the belief that God is watching...they do it because they understand what it is to suffer and they feel true compassion for the suffering (compassion comes from the latin 'com' 'passio'='with' 'suffer' or 'to suffer with').

as far as a child not hitting another kid because he is a good person and has compassion, that is simply not true. spend 10 minutes around a group of kids and you will realize that children need rules or else all hell breaks loose (i coached a summer league swim team for 5 yrs). children hit each other all the time and if you dont think so, i need to introduce you to my 5yr old twin cousins. they are ruthless.

The kids thing was a sarcastic analogy....uh, mon dieu, qui est cet idiot? ...

peace

je ne suis pas un idiot parce-que je denotais comment ton pensee ne fonctionnait pas.

ok, we talk english on this board if you didn't notice.



Rock on...
Kevin

I wanna be with you forever, and tomorrows not too late...

"Beware the fury of a patient man" ~John Dryden

After I say this everyone will hate me but I agree w/ Scott. Religion is an abstraction of reality. Its main purpose is for security, social order and to make sense of the physical world around us. The reason for its more modern abstraction is the growing need for more scientific explanations, laws and so forth. I believe it was nietzsche as well who said that "we in fact killed God". Which we did. Our social and scientific advancement did so. So to answer your question Edawg "wouldn't our world be a much better place without religion?" Our world is religion and vise versa. This is how we first began to understand the natural world as it is today, and it somehow manifested itself into something different. Not one particular religion, but the concept of religion as a whole. So for you to disagree is perfectly valid but at the same time, its nearly impossible to see our world without it. Think about Native Americans for instance, They may not have had traditional Western based religion. But a religion just the same. Now if you are referring to a particular religion that is another story. Sorry to continue the debate. Just thought I would put that out there.

Je pourrais comprendre seulement un petit de ce que vous avez dit. Bien que je pense que nous qui avons prouve les intellectuels sont sur ce conseil! But, hey ho! I guess that is just the way it is! It was a good effort!